Help talk:Images

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Archive 1: Mar 2007 - Jan 2012

Finding Steam screenshots

I used F12 to take a screenshot using Steam, but can't locate the image. I checked the locations listed on the help pages, but some of them are vague ("the installation directory"). It wasn't located in steamapps\common\skyrim. I don't even know how Steam will name them, or what format it will be in. Can someone help me find my image so I can upload it? This is my first time, so nooby details are much appreciated. Thank you. Xyzzy 20:16, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Steam\userdata\43799754\760\remote\72850\screenshots is where mine are stored. The numbers may be different, but you get the idea. Steam names them by date and number taken that day; my first taken today (that I took to check this) was 2012-04-07_00001. Also, once you close out from Skyrim, a window should be set to automatically pop up with the screenshots you took in your last session, with options to delete them or see all shots from the game, and to "show on disk". It'll be in .jpg format. Vely^{►Talk►Email} 20:44, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Thank you Vely. As soon as I posted my question, I closed my browser and Steam, and *poof*, there was the Steam screenshot manager. It gives the option to upload via the manager, but I just followed the help page instructions. Not sure where Steam would upload to. Xyzzy 01:28, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

Underwater screenshots

Is there a console command for removing the underwater visual effect for taking screenshots of fish? I can't seem to find one. --Xyzzy 15:18, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Never mind. Found it myself using "help toggle". It's "tws". I will add it to the article. --Xyzzy 15:38, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

How do I delete pictures?

I tried to put a picture (that I took myself) on a page but it was too small, now I'm trying to delete it but how? — Unsigned comment by LoveFPS (talk • contribs) at 07:15 on 27 April 2012(UTC)

I dont think you can, if you want something deleted you can add a proposed for deletion template to it and your reason for wanting it deleted. The template should look something like this. {{prod|reason for deletion}} — Kimi the Elf ^{(talk | contribs)} 07:23, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Kimi's directions are generally the correct way, but for a page or image that you uploaded yourself and that's unused anywhere else, you can use a Speedy Deletion instead of a Proposed Deletion. That would look like this: {{speed|reason for deletion}}. Just go to the image page, edit it, and place that template at the top, and an Admin will come by shortly to delete it. – Robin Hood↝talk 10:25, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Weather formids

Does anyone have more details on the weather codes in Skyrim? The suggestion in the tips section on the page gives a code for a "clear weather type" in Skyrim, but this will, for example, make a bright sunny day in Winterhold, which results in images that strike me as incongruent with the game world. The table under "force weather" on the Console page shows several types of "clear" weather marked by various codes that I can't figure out. I put one in randomly on one occasion, and got a suitably bright, clear photo that maintained consistency with the region. I wonder if there's one that yields a "clear weather type typical for your current location". --JR^{Talk E-mail} 03:03, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

There might be some codes involved with the Clear Skies shout that keep it region based, just guessing. The Silencer has spoken^Talk 03:24, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

It sounds like a good guess. I'll experiment. --J "I have been silenced" R^{Talk E-mail}

Looking around in the Creation Kit, the weather system is stupendously complex. Based on the comments in the CK, one thing I can certainly shed light on here is that yes, Clear Skies picks its weather based on the specific region you're in. I have no concrete details other than that, though, as it calls on code in the executable itself—it's not something visible in the CK. Still, we know it's based on the climate and/or region data, and based on the names in the Creation Kit, we can make some guesses.

To use the previous example of Winterhold, the only weather type I see defined for Winterhold is SkyrimStormSnow (for those with the CK, this is found in the World menu, Regions, then search for WeatherWinterhold), which matches what we see in-game...it's always snowing there. Out of curiosity, does Clear Skies do anything there? My first suspicion would be that it doesn't, but there is a Winterhold-specific weather type with no precipitation listed in the CK (FXWthrInvertWindowsWinterhold, FormID: 0010DA13), so it's possible that through whatever algorithm it's using, Clear Skies is selecting that weather type when cast.

Summing up, I can't tell you what, specifically, the weather would be in any given location, but you're right that there are regional variations of what's considered to be clear weather. It's not as simple as always using the one suggested on the page.

Oh and as far as figuring out the weather codes, even without the CK, your guess is almost as good as mine. The names listed on the Console page suggest what to expect, and the CK data really only gives you a slightly more specific idea than that. The best way to find out is probably just to punch the code to the left of a promising-sounding name into the console (e.g., fw 0010da13 for the aforementioned FXWthrInvertWindowsWinterhold) and see what effect you get. – Robin Hood↝talk 22:15, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

ENB and Graphic Modifying Plug ins

Am i allowed to put pictures with extra ENB effects that make the game look nicer (SSAO, DOF) or Mods that improve graphics such as Realistic Lighting and URWL and Texture improving mods (like Skyrim HD or 2k textures) or screenshots they must be 100% Vanilla? — Unsigned comment by 41.254.0.251 (talk) at 17:55 on July 16, 2012

You are allowed to upload such images, but please note what visual-changing mods you are using in the image's summary. Additionally, such images will very likely not be used in actual articles unless the effect is minor and there are no decent vanilla screenshots for the subject. We prefer to have all our articles' images with vanilla graphics and effects. The main use for images taken with such mods is probably userpage decoration. Vely^►t►e 03:48, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

"Improving Screenshots" Section

I tried to improve this section with some rewording. I guess the graphic should be wider, so that the lengthy caption does not make it too tall and awkward-looking. Don't know how to do it myself. --JR (talk) 02:39, 27 October 2012 (GMT)

I generally dislike forcing something to be wider than someone's thumbnail preference, but in this case, I think you have a point. I made it 300px, which seems about right and shouldn't bother the formatting too much even on narrower screens. – Robin Hood↝talk 04:09, 27 October 2012 (GMT)

Captions and Concluding Punctuation

I am moving my response to this topic from the Community Portal (== Image Caption Standards ==) 8 Dec 2012, due to its length, and because Legoless didn't intend to raise a big/heated issue.

Respectfully, I would object. Legoless, I don't see how your proposal is "based on that discussion." The discussion involves 1) Lord Eydvar stating that he was frequently corrected by people who added punctuation to his captions, and so concluded that punctuating them was our policy or standard practice; 2) Psylocke stating that "plenty of patrollers" remove such punctuation; 3) ABCface deftly describing the actual grammar standard (end sentences in captions with punctuation); 4) Me asking if that (punctuating caption sentences) can be specified in our policies, since it is not; 5) Br3admax pointing to an old CP discussion that is related but (to my eyes) inconclusive; 6) ABCface reiterating that it is correct to punctuate full sentences, but not fragments, in captions and suggesting it be codified in our policy; 7) Psylocke agreeing and suggesting that "that" (ABCface's view that sentences be punctuated!) be added to a particular place.

How then, is your action based on that? (Note that I am not challenging you for making the change and asking for input! I am just observing that such a move doesn't, by my lights, follow from the discussion.)

Although I am quite far on the "progressive"/"descriptivist" end of the grammar spectrum (I believe in a good deal of grammatical flexibility, see language as an evolving thing, and believe grammar serves more to describe language than to prescribe it). However, when a convention is universally held (at least to my knowledge, which, in this particular area is extensive) among experts and professionals, why disregard it if we are then not free to disregard any or all of them? (Why, for example, end sentences in the bodies of articles with punctuation?) I ask that not to be a smartass, but to make a point in earnest: Where experts and professionals all agree, then expectations are justifiably defined. Some people will simply recognize unpunctuated sentences as mistakes, whether in captions or elsewhere.

It's obvious to me that there is no official specific wiki policy nor currently any widely-held standard or practice with respect to the issue, despite Psylocke's apparent confusion on that matter. I'm rather certain that the grammar standard, however, is uncontroversial among any of the recognized grammar or style "authorities", and among professional writers, editors, or publishers, particularly technical writers, scholarly article/science writers, non-fiction writers, and journalists. I simply know this, because I am an English teacher (and while a good number of my fellow English teachers are ill-informed about many aspects of grammar, I used to teach writing at Columbia University, where there are still plenty of dummies, but where you ultimately have to know because there are also plenty of smarties). I edit articles for scientific journals, have worked as the managing editor of a newspaper, and am a published author of a scholarly work in health care economics. (And certified in CPR.) It is also policy on Wikipedia. Admittedly, we have no formal policy saying that we follow their style, but it does seem to have a tradition of being cited as a "default" except where exceptions are specified. I mention it mainly because it was raised above, and because it is simply one more "authority" on what's correct. Fundamentally, it is simple: Captions that comprise or include a grammatical sentence receive end punctuation for each sentence and for each sentence fragment. A sentence fragment alone does not.

This is very commonly misunderstood by many others, even very well-read, highly educated, and literary-minded people. The major reason that we may be confused about this is that few of us encounter a specific need to explicitly learn it. We may simply notice, consciously or not, that many captions are not capitalized without registering that they are sentence fragments, and then erroneously generalize to conclude that "no punctuation for captions" is a rule or a free stylistic choice. A close second reason involves the question, What is a sentence? That is very well answered here, I think. And for those of us who enjoy tidying-up or "getting it right" as much as we can when we contribute, it is not very much to learn. For example, "Danger!" is a sentence because it is an exclamation, (and thus the current caption for the header image in Dragon Rising is grammatical). "Sure." can be a sentence although it lacks the classic subject and predicate (normally including a finite verb) that conventionally defines a sentence in middle-school English classes—it is a minor sentence. "What?" is a sentence because it is an interrogatory. "Leave." is a sentence though it has no explicit subject, because it is an imperative. Ultimately, what is and is not a sentence will get into a gray area. There is a grammatical concept called "ellipsis" which allows for grammatical elements to be left out in some circumstances when they can reasonably be "understood" to "be there". Thus, "No." can be a sentence when it is preceded, for example, by "Do you like grammar?" because it is understood that the required subject and verb are implied to be there: "No, I don't like grammar." So, we must at some point let go of the idea that there is "one" grammar that governs authoritatively. Language is a nearly-infinitely complex, squishy, mutating thing, and we simply cannot "cover" it completely with an orderly set of rules. They don't teach us that in elementary school, and it's a difficult idea to really grasp, accept, and hold. But it's true.

I think that editors who are not grammar/style wonks can do fine with "punctuate captions if they are or contain a sentence". Exceptions can be handled by those of us who are.

Legoless, I honestly think your OCD would be even less happy with your seemingly user-friendly proposal once you will now begin to notice that captions in all other "professional/respected" publications follow these rules. (If there's an exception, I'd love to see it.) Why should our wiki be inconsistent with that? In fact, your proposal is more fraught with inconsistencies than is following the standard. For example: Why punctuate quoted text in captions in particular? Why punctuate the middle parts of a caption (with commas, for example), but not the ends? Why omit periods in captions, but retain question marks and exclamation marks? Why punctuate captions that have more than one sentence, but not punctuate captions that are a single sentence (like the caption here)? I humbly suggest that the consistency you seem to seek in your proposal is a mirage. A more cohesive and durable consistency can be found in this: Sentences have a punctuation mark at the end. Consistency can be found with the punctuation of captions in (I believe) any publication you look at, as long as it is a "professional" or prestigious one, with highly-trained writers and editors. And if you/some enjoy correcting things by removing end punctuation from captions, I suspect you can enjoy adding it where needed just as much?

I'd ask to stick to the widely acknowledged grammar convention, and ask for a consensus if we are to depart from it on this particular issue. With regard to using initial capitals for important words in article/page titles, we have a different story. Many publications that tend to be linguistically conservative/traditional still capitalize articles (see the headline style of The New York Times, while more and more "progressive/modern" publications, like Wikipedia and The Washington Post capitalize only the initial words of headlines). We also depart from mainstream grammar in using (or at least preferring) "logical quotation marks", but there we follow Wikipedia and such publications as the prestigious Language, (the journal of the Linguistic Society of North America). (By the way, that journal puts periods on the ends of figure captions even if they are not sentences as generally defined; see the figure captions in one of their articles.) My point is, as far as I know, this would put us out completely on our own, and so, I think serious readers who happen to be knowledgeable on the issue, would simply see unpunctuated sentences as mistakes, not as a stylistic choice. No, please.

If we do decide on following the widely held standard, I would be happy to draft a proposed clarifying guideline. --JR (talk) 22:41, 9 December 2012 (GMT)

I think we have enough input to try for a consensus. I will suggest that we essentially follow WP's guidelines. Captions that contain one or more full sentences receive end punctuation for each such sentence and for any additional fragments. Captions that are not full sentences receive no end punctuation, unless it serves a compelling purpose (e.g., one word with an exclamation mark or question mark may be appropriate). A minor remaining issue is formatting captions. WP says basically to format captions as normal text. Since we italicize quotes in "normal text" on the wiki, I think quotes in captions should also be italicized. I have no problem with bolding the caption for featured images, and if that's not an issue for anyone, I'll just propose formalizing that it be capitalized. So, to come: Proposed language for the Help:Images page, perhaps with a link from the spelling page. I aim for about two weeks, unless there comes further input. Note that my intended next action is still to propose policy, not yet amend it. --JR (talk) 01:56, 24 January 2013 (GMT)

Getting Current locationid / location names

If my character is in an unmarked location, how can I use the console to obtain information on the current location, and what kind of info is available: locationid Location name(s)? --JR (talk) 12:08, 8 January 2013 (GMT)

Proposed Revisions to "Renaming Images" section of page;

See the CP discussion

If there's no objection, this language, as corrected and amended, will be moved to replace the "Renaming Images" sectin of the Help:Images page.

This change would allow all autoconfirmed users to move images and speedy request deletions.

If we decide to move it forward, there should be a modification to the deletion policy page, as well. --JR (talk) 21:27, 19 January 2013 (GMT)

Consensus assumed, section revised. --JR (talk) 17:58, 30 January 2013 (GMT)

PS3 Screenshots

Does anyone anyone know how I can take screenshots with the PS3 if possible? I am interested in taking screenshots and uploading them if they're any good on occasion. --Jake-518 (talk) 06:52, 1 February 2013 (GMT)

Jake, I am to a PS3 user. You can indeed take screenshots, but with my method, they are of low quality and images over long distances are very blurry and almost unrecognisable. To do this, find the place you want to take an image of. Get it the right way you want it, and then save. Load the save onto a USB and insert it onto your PC. Go into the folder named PS3 or something, then go to the folder that is Skyrim etc. Find the save image then copy it onto your desktop. I haven't tested this method for TES 4 Oblivion, but it works for Skyrim. - Chez ^{talk • email} 07:01, 1 February 2013 (GMT)

I see. Thanks Chezburgar! --Jake-518 (talk) 07:11, 1 February 2013 (GMT)

No problem Jake! I apologize if the method is confusing. I'm not the best at explaining things. I recommend not using the images you take on the UESP, and only for personal use, because as I said, they are of low quality and will be replaced soon after. But have fun! - Chez ^{talk • email} 07:16, 1 February 2013 (GMT)

Resolution

It seems that we may have, in at least some quarters, an unofficial policy about minimum acceptable/ideal image resolutions. Is that so, if so, waht is it? I don't even understand resolution, except that axb is a pixels in distance by b pixels in distance. I don't really understand what it has to do with something like "density" or amount of data packed into an area. Let's get this on the policy page if we are going to be replacing people's images (especially new people who are eager to help out acquiring badly-needed images. --JR (talk) 12:44, 7 February 2013 (GMT)

Pointing Readers to "Image Requests"

I amended the page here, assuming it is uncontroversial. If that's not the case, revert and/or discuss. --JR (talk) 06:45, 13 February 2013 (GMT)

Story Images

In my relatively short time here on the UESP so far, I have seen numerous debates over what I would call "supplementary NPC images", those that aren't the primary image on an NPC page. There was one such debate recently (sorry, I can't remember where, to link to it) about a Quest Image being used as a supplementary image on an NPC page, and whether it should therefore be renamed and resized or not. I'm pretty sure that debate was resolved at that time, but I can't recall what the solution was.

I've just come across a rename request for this image, and got into a discussion with Kimi the Elf over it. My suggestion, from that discussion, is that the classification of "Story Images" should be codified better in the Image Guidelines to overcome such problems in the future. It seems that we already have categories for "Story Images", so why not codify them with their own naming convention and aspect ratio requirements (including a "no requirement" requirement) in the Image Guidelines? – Daric↝talk 22:41, 21 March 2013 (GMT)

Categories vs Filenames

In the section defining the image naming conventions a list of categories are provided which include: exterior, interior, quests and story. When I look at the names provided for the images associated with those categories, I see NPC, Place, Interior, Quest somewhat mixed within the categories. I realize some of this is a need to rename some images or create duplicates with different contexts.

My questions is why Place is used as part of an image name at all. I would interpret Place as a wiki page category which might contain images that are both interior and exterior views of the location. Places that are not accessible structures would be exterior-only, but when possible descriptions of a location should contain as many points of view as required to provide useful information to the reader/player.

When is a story not a quest? Offhand I would assume all stories would be citations from prose in books read in the course of the game. If that is not the intent of the story images, would it not be more consistent to call them all quest images? Normally there is general content a player can access by freely wandering the environment/world and then there is quest/instance specific content that is only accessible if certain requirements are met. Is that the same distinction/definition expected here? Igor van Dame (talk) 05:24, 22 April 2013 (GMT)

Story images are for NPC pages, they tell the story of that NPC. While a place image is a picture from the outside of a place, it is not a picture of the exterior, there is a subtle difference detectable through the focus of the image. An exterior shot is something that documents a view of a place, while a place image is trying to show you what the architect wants you to see when they designed it. Take Jorrvaskr for instance, the architect wants you to see a grand building with a sculpted roof, while an exterior shot from the Skyforge shows that the roof is in fact the bottom of a boat. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 17:44, 22 April 2013 (GMT)

Two Images next to each other

Is there a possibility to place two images next to each other (I mean, one image direct left of an |thumb|right - Image)? SarthesArai (talk) 14:43, 12 May 2013 (GMT)

Yes, either by manually placing them in a hidden table, or using the Multiple images template with horizontal direction. --Roger (talk) 15:05, 12 May 2013 (GMT)

No Standards for Lore?

I can't seem to find any hint at a standard naming scheme for lore images. Just look at Category:lore-Images. While there are some uses of either LO or Lore, almost none of them follow any kind of standard. I would like to propose the standard prefix be "LO", to match the others, so lore images would have the name "LO-category-Name.file type". Any other thoughts on this? At the moment, lore-related images are just a mess, so I would like to have some opinions, or maybe some further information I have missed. --AKB ^{Talk Cont Mail} 21:34, 31 July 2013 (GMT)

"LO" is currently the initials the wiki uses for the namespace. In keeping with our other image naming standards, I agree with using it. —Legoless (talk) 21:36, 31 July 2013 (GMT)

Aspect ratio in full screen images

I started to upload some NPC images from Online and will try to upload some places too. The guidelines says it should be 4:3, but since new games and screens are no loger that format, can it be changed to some kind of panoramic ratio. I think the "standard" is 16:10. Moinante (talk) 19:39, 14 April 2014 (GMT)

Every game since the wiki has existed was in widescreen; our guidelines are not based on the technical specifications of the games. This topic has been brought up several times (see here and here for example), and the consensus has always been that wider images look bad as thumbnails on the page, and the inconsistency would not be worth any possible benefits. -- Hargrimm^(T) 20:10, 14 April 2014 (GMT)

Thanks for the answer. Did a quick search and didn't find anything about. I'll try to take in account the cut in the borders when I take the screenshots. Moinante (talk) 12:28, 16 April 2014 (GMT)

Upload File: no preview

For a while now, I don't get a preview of my source file anymore. Is it a common glitch? I can't find anything in my preferences related to it. --Holomay (talk) 14:31, 16 January 2015 (GMT)

I've experienced the same, but didn't give much thought to it -- SarthesArai ^Talk 14:49, 16 January 2015 (GMT)

Yes, I have this issue as well. It is somewhat inconvenient since it is the way to see how the thumb looks on the wiki before actually uploading the image. And also to double check image parameters. - Shuryard (talk) 16:13, 16 January 2015 (GMT)

I'm out for the afternoon, but I'll try to remember to look into this tonight and see if I can find anything. If I haven't posted back in about 12-24 hours, someone nudge me in this direction again...I may forget. :) – Robin Hood  ^(talk) 18:17, 16 January 2015 (GMT)

This is another Javascript script that's failing due to the ESO popups. Dave's knowledge of Javascript is much better than mine (by which I mean: he has some), but I'll play around a bit and see if I can at least figure out where the problem lies and, if I'm really lucky, maybe fix it. – Robin Hood  ^(talk) 23:31, 16 January 2015 (GMT)

I've figured out the problem. Yay! :) It was actually a problem with Jak's sidebar code, which in turn caused Dave to think there was something wrong with his code when there actually wasn't, and his attempt to "fix" his own code fed back into the problem in Jak's code. Between the two of them, all these other oddities cropped up. Having now fixed the sidebar code, I've been able to fix the ESO popup code—and by extension, the upload previews—on Content3, for those who are curious. It'll probably be tomorrow before I can fix it on the main servers, though, as I need Dave to do something on those servers, so I'm off for the night. – Robin Hood  ^(talk) 03:00, 17 January 2015 (GMT)

Wow! That is some chunk of work... And so many things are interconnected :) Thank you very much! - Shuryard (talk) 03:06, 17 January 2015 (GMT)

(←) I actually got lucky and spotted the problem very quickly, at least once I remembered that the sidebar code had been implicated a while back. Once I looked at that, everything after it just sort of fell into place. :) – Robin Hood  ^(talk) 03:15, 17 January 2015 (GMT)

Dave did my homework for me, so this problem should be entirely fixed now. It may need a hard refresh to make it work, though. – Robin Hood  ^(talk) 19:29, 17 January 2015 (GMT)

Hurray! It works! The image preview is back! Thank you, Robin and Dave :) - Shuryard (talk) 19:40, 17 January 2015 (GMT)

Thank you very much, Robin and Dave! :) Holomay (talk) 09:15, 19 January 2015 (GMT)

Corrupted BMP screenshots

Hello!

I've been taking screenshots with Print Screen. They are saved in steamapps/common/Skyrim. They show up in a corrupted bmp format that windows photo viewer can't open, neither can paint nor photoshop, even when I rename them to png or jpg/jpeg. I know the solution is to turn down the resolution while shooting and change it back afterwards, or to use the screenshot feature of Steam or any screen recording program. But is there something that can be done for the pictures I have already taken?

Feel free to move this post if it's misplaced. :)

Xplorerpsaxtiri (talk) 14:35, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

No viewer will open them correctly, as they're not valid images. I wrote a tool a while back which can correct them.

http://www.nexusmods.com/oblivion/mods/41679

- Bomb Bloke (talk) 22:38, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

Thank you!

Xplorerpsaxtiri (talk) 18:56, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

"Too low resolution"

430pixels. A cutie butterfly

500x500pixels. Not possible to go closer.

650x650pixels. Although clipped out of a 1900x1200 screenshot, this still looks good, and it would probably do so with as low as 500px.

970x970pixels. A beautiful centipede, but how big difference can you see with the first image which is 2x lower res? Plus the pixelated treestump

I have seen it several times now that images are flagged as having "too low resolution" and it has made me wonder how and why we measure the image quality.

In ESO, you can set your game resolution within 640x480 pixels ≤ resolution ≤ 1900x1200 pixels. That's a huge amount of pixels!

A standard 4:3 image uploaded on UESP is, according to my guess, often around 1200-1600 x 900-1200 pixels, and for NPCs we often manage at least 700x700 or more. But with so many pixels, an image that has a lower resolution does not necessarily have to be visibly of lower quality and it does not display as "ugly" by any means. Not on the thumbnail and not full size either.

Lastly, I think image rendering and the photographer's graphics settings is where the biggest problems arise, but these would fall under some vague category of "quality" issues.

Another thing which I want to ask about are the file sizes. Does it impact the access of the site? I think that earlier it was discouraged to use too big images, due to loading times which essentially affects accessibility, but I don't know if this is an issue today. Anyways, thinking about the accessibility, maybe we should encourage images <1MB.

The takeaway:

• A good image does not need high resolution, because we already are dealing with high resolutions
• A good image does not need to be big in size
• Sometimes you cannot take a close-up image (aggro range) whereas sometimes you have to (small creatures) - and both of these can result in problems

So. What is a reasonable minimum resolution? If I was to flag images as in need of improvement, I'd likely react to following issues - blurried, bad light, bad angle, pixelated, over-modified, showing player characters, showing UI elements, ratio (2 last ones already have separate categories). Tib (talk) 16:28, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

Edit - since I'm going through the "Images with improper.. etc" categories, and this is what prompted my question, I'll give an example - Dwarven Sphere. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the image, but it is flagged as having too low resolution. And there's several of images like this! Tib (talk) 16:47, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

My only problem with the Dwarven Sphere image is that the sphere is in rolled-up mode. The main image for that page should be a sphere in its standing pose. The rolled up image could be there as a secondary image, but not the main image. I do agree that flagging an image just because it is below an arbitrary size in pixels is not the way to go. Images should only be flagged if it's reasonable to expect that a larger image is possible (e.g. it's not likely that a significantly larger version of that butterfly is possible - my screen resolution is pretty decent and I was zoomed in as much as possible for that) and if the existing image is of noticeably poor quality, which I'd say is not the case with any of your examples. — TheRealLurlock (talk) 22:14, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

PNG support in browsers

This line – "BMP format is not supported by web browsers, and the files are very large in size, while .png files are not universally supported and are discouraged for screenshots." – is extremely outdated (unless UESP plans to support similarly outdated browsers); PNG has actually become the de facto standard for screenshots on many game wikis.

While BMP is obviously not an option due to file size, and indeed, still not universal support, PNG offers lossless compression (unlike JPEG, which has visible artifacts, especially on finer details and if zoomed in). This line should be amended, and how depends on whether the increased size of PNG screenshots and the effort of gradual displacement of JPGs is an unacceptable burden on UESP servers and editors. --46.146.36.67 12:08, 24 September 2018 (UTC)

The vast majority of game wikis lack substance, there are very few that actually have a comparable amount of coverage of their game or series that we do. As such I wouldn't take any notice of their efforts to hide their lack of detail behind their shiny pics. The line may need reworded because it is out of date, but I see no compelling need to change our standard file type, especially as our screenshots are only supplemental to our coverage, not the entirety of it. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 18:53, 24 September 2018 (UTC)

I was thinking of several other gaming wikis which exactly do have significant coverage of their games and series... although I do admit very few game universes are as vast as TES. While screenshots are indeed not the primary source of information in articles, hardly any article would be sufficiently complete without at least one. I'm not talking about actually pushing JPG→PNG replacement as a priority task, but the current iteration of the guideline effectively asserts replacing PNG screenshots with JPEG is strongly recommended, while currently it is actually not even meaningful. --46.146.36.67 03:39, 25 September 2018 (UTC)

Since there have been no further posts, I have drafted a more extensive proposal.

Issue: Current image guidelines mandate replacing PNG screenshots with JPEG screenshots citing that the PNG format is not widely supported, which is no longer accurate. JPEG images have lossy compression, which results in likely pointless reduction of quality.

Proposed resolution: PNG would become a preferred format for all images. The practice of replacing reencoding PNG images into JPEG images would be deprecated.

The only possible problem with this resolution is that serving PNG images and storing them would be unacceptably taxing on UESP servers. However, most editors are not qualified to assess such a risk because they cannot access the necessary data (server analytics, specifications and statistics) to make justified conclusions.

This resolution would not require (but would allow) substantial effort from editors. Previously existing images would become replaceable, though this should in no way declared a priority task. Ceasing PNG→JPEG conversions could actually result in _reduction_ of necessary maintenance effort.

Fallback resolution: If using mainly PNG images is unacceptable for some reason (this cannot be browser support or editor effort), this reason should be explained in the relevant image guideline.

P. S. Attacks against other wikis are not constructive. --46.146.108.98 16:30, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

So I actually agree with these points. That's not to say we should pull all our effort into making new images where there are already images present as JPEG format, just that new images (and replacement images) should not be constrained by an outdated file format. I believe there is the argument that JPEG files are smaller than PNG and thus do take up less space on the wiki, but that's in my opinion not enough reason to not innovate/progress with the internet at large. --Ilaro (talk) 17:54, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

I'm always happy to see unfounded accusations. The line about png being "not universally support" should be reworded as all major browsers support it, though as you might note it is still behind jpeg and gif in support. Png's major point of being lossless is irrelevant on a website where it is only there to be displayed, as the main purpose of losslessness is for images that are going to see a lot of saving and/or editing. Jpeg is still the recommended format for every major website where the quality of the image is not a factor. Indeed jpeg is the recommended format for normal images on wikipedia (though it does recommend that software screenshots be in png). Anyone who can read the line "png images are typically larger in file size than jpeg" is qualified to know that having all images in png rather than jpeg will be more taxing on the servers. We are not wikipedia who have a line on their image standards that ""saving server space" is not a valid consideration" when choosing what format to upload in, there is limited capacity that has to be paid for (as does wikipedia but they are a much larger company).

There are 86k images on the site, though quite probably a majority of those are png icons which are almost irrelevant in file size. There are 60k content pages (ie not redirects) on the site, and the vast majority of them should have a screenshot or even multiple (NPCs, quests, places). That is a lot of images, and a lot of space needed to store them. The difference in file size can be anywhere between 2 and 10 times, typically about 4 times as big. If you consider all those thousands of images and the thousands yet to be uploaded, increasing the size of each one quickly adds up to a large amount of server space.

Making png the preferred "option" is not a good choice. Jpeg still does the job that is required of them, and it more than does the job that we require of it. Png is only used on on other wikis because its the default on PCs and many people don't realise or care how easy it is to change the format (though Microsoft did "depreciate" paint from their standard software), the main reason behind most of the png screenshot images uploaded here too. Other systems use jpeg as default, it is not out-dated, nor is png more "modern" or innovative, they are exactly as modern as each other, only differentiating in what purpose they serve, large jpeg files are even rivaling png in quality. There is also the question about what to do with images which do not have a png original, such as those taken on other systems or taken from the TES websites. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 01:43, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

TL;DR the only real issue with a total PNG conversion is server space.

1. Again, I refer you to the Wikipedia page I linked. The only browser listed on that page which is both not discontinued and has worse PNG support than JPEG or GIF is Sleipnir, a barely used Japanese browser with partial PNG support and full JPEG and GIF support. When Sleipnir support is a major factor, even Internet Explorer 6 would be worth considering, and I shouldn't need to explain why it isn't.
2. Here's a story for you to understand my issues with JPEG screenshots. I have used a UESP screenshot from Skyrim for a non-public internal project, and I had to use GIMP editing to reduce compression artifacts to acceptable levels at the cost of reducing the image's quality in a different manner. I mentioned it's a Skyrim screenshot because Oblivion and Morrowind screenshots are much worse, to the point that many Morrowind screenshots allowed me to correctly infer some internals of JPEG compression algorithms (specifically, the part where the image is broken into 8x8px chunks). Additionally, a low-quality screenshot (e. g. too dark) could use color correction as a temporary fix before the screenshot is refilmed in a better environment. JPEG compression artifacts could make this problematic, for example, they could become more visible. Lossless compression would make this a non-issue. However...
3. Yes, server space capacity is the only concern I have. Since you didn't make an estimate of how much server space a complete conversion to PNG would take, I'll have to do it. Assuming a quite pessimistic scenario where every image is 1280x1024px of incompressible data, the number of illustrated articles is doubled (120 thousand), and every this article needs 5 images on average, plus there's 10 % overhead (file pages, cached thumbnails, metadata, etc.) That's 1280 * 1024 * 3 (dimensions * bytes per pixel assuming RGB with 8 bits per channel) * 5 * 120000 * 1.1 ... that's approximately 2.4 terabytes, which is indeed prohibitively large, honestly much larger than even I expected. I tried a less pessimistic estimate and got 350 gigabytes (assuming 1024x1024 images, 80000 articles with 3 images per article, and 50% size reduction after considering overhead, which is not really off given my library of 1920x1080 screenshots achieves something close to this), which is still quite large. If this is the showstopper issue, however (which is likely), it needs to be explained in the guide.
4. Your last paragraph contains multiple issues. Speaking of other wikis, and the reasons behind their policies, in such a firm and assertive manner is a clear sign of prejudice. PNG being "modern" was never part of the discussion, neither was mandating replacing irreplaceable images.

So I propose replacing this part of the page:

• When you capture a screenshot, the image may be saved as a .bmp or .png file. Do not upload .bmp files. BMP format is not supported by web browsers, and the files are very large in size, while .png files are not universally supported and are discouraged for screenshots. Before uploading, you must convert the files to a more web-friendly format; JPG is the standard for screenshots.

with this:

• When you capture a screenshot, the image may be saved as a .bmp or a .png file. Such files should not be uploaded to UESP: PNG screenshots have large file sizes, which would be prohibitive for large collections such as the one on UESP, and BMP screenshots are even larger with slightly poorer browser support. Before uploading, convert the screenshots to the JPEG format (the file extension would be .jpg or .jpeg).

One could also try including a comment about using higher JPEG compression quality.

P. S. A joke proposal which may turn out not to be a joke in a few years: use WebP. --46.146.108.98 23:48, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

I agree that the line should be updated, since PNG has near identical browser support to JPG. The standard could well be "BMP is prohibited, PNG is discouraged for any image where JPG will suffice." But I do not know enough of the server load information, nor the specific use cases of the formats, to distinguish where that boundary would be. Lost in Hyrule (talk) 15:10, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

I agree that the line definitely needs to be updated. I think we should wait for input from Daveh and/or RobinHood before making a decision about jpg vs png, as they will likely have the most insight on how much it would impact server load and page delivery. We may also need to move this to AN or CP at some point if the jpg vs png discussion is to continue. --Enodoc (talk) 17:38, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

(←) I just read this Help page, and the "while .png files are not universally supported" was the first thing that caught my eye. I agree with the others that the sentence is outdated and should be changed. I also note that while BMP called file size, this was not done for PNG. Did we ever pull in User:Daveh or User:RobinHood to get agreement? --Corwyn (talk · contr) 13:25, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

In the spirit of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Be_bold I've gone ahead and removed that text about PNG being not well supported. I did NOT change that jpg is still the preferred option. -- Corwyn (talk · contr) 13:44, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

Update for inline image inclusion instructions?

Looks like the "how to" for inserting images into posts may need an update or rewrite. I may be the only one who has had no success in trying to put pictures into posts using img or File:, but maybe not. After years of doing html, I still find this markup a bit opaque. Some more concrete examples? Perhaps I'm not that bright, but there may be others like me out there. — Unsigned comment by NyarlathotepJr (talk • contribs) at 16:43 on 29 December 2018

The built-in image format is a bit odd, you're right. MediaWiki implemented it as a sort of mishmash of "put whatever you want wherever you want and I'll figure it out...except for some things, you don't use parameter names, other things you do, and still others you have to use a specific format or specific words". This runs completely contrary to HTML, or almost any other coding language, which either require names or a specific parameter order. Looking at the documentation, though, I don't see anything that's terribly unclear, but I'm coming from the perspective of someone who already knows the syntax, so I might be overlooking something that's not obvious to someone who doesn't already understand it. Can you give more specifics? What is it you want to do, and what have you tried to do?

The basic format is as follows: [[File:Example.jpg]], which produces

This is the image label.

After that, it gets more complex. A common usage is [[File:Example.jpg|thumb|This is the image label.]], which produces the image on the right. – Robin Hood  ^(talk) 19:23, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

The page is fine, it is more than likely something to do with the single image you have uploaded. The image is named using an opening quotation mark, which is technically different than an apostrophe. If you are trying to add the image typing an apostrophe then it won't work, you need to rename the image yet again. I am hesitant to do that for you as I am unsure if it is just an image of your character, or of an NPC in the game. If it is a character image then it needs reclassified as a User image, not an ON image. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 21:00, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

Vertical Image Position single line of 9 was too crowded to show differences

For the minimum font size and picture size, trying to get 9 entries across the page to illustrate the differences in vertical spacing was not showing any differences! Rather than revert to smaller sizes (which put a strain on old eyes like mine), I broke the illustration into two lines. The text underlines   now point at the pictures and more clearly show the effects of the template's options. Kalevala (talk) 03:20, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

Image Standards for Skills

There is no standard for skill images and they are not included in the list of categories, although the categories for skill images of each game exist (e.g. Online-Skill Images). Most existing images are either 1:1 or 4:3 Fiwiji (talk) 12:39, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

I don't know if we need a standard here. Most that are 1:1 are either images of creatures or player characters, which seems correct. The rest are a mix of 4:3 or wider resolutions. —⁠Legoless (talk) 10:45, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

Swapping File Formats

It feels like an obvious answer, but I want to be sure— when updating images of a different file format, how do you go about it? Do you follow similar procedures as Renaming Images? Do you make an entirely-new page and delete-request the old one? Is it possible to merge them together under one page, despite the differing file formats? Asking in case there is a need to "preserve" the old image being replaced; if so, I'm curious if it will be retained by swapping pages.

Currently going to update it with its current format (.png), but I have the .jpg ready. Would love to know how to go about it the right way. — Ingura (talk) 10:50, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

As you've probably already discovered, you can't update an existing image with one that's a different format. So, the only correct way is to upload the new format as a separate file and delete the old one. An administrator can always undelete an image if it's ever needed again, and not having duplicates avoids clutter. If I missed anything, please let me know. – Robin Hood ^(talk) 13:30, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Oh, when requesting deletion, it's super-helpful to admins if you include a link to the old file. We can then put that in our deletion reason, which makes it easy to spot that there is a file with more history that we may need to look at. – Robin Hood ^(talk) 14:10, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Indeed, will keep that all in mind. Thanks! — Ingura (talk) 18:43, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Webp

Proposal: Restrict the usage of the webp format in any case except where it is absolutely necessary, as the format adds an extra step to dealing with due to it needing to be converted to be worked on. It doesn't offer any advantage, and there are very few webp images at this time. --AKB ^{Talk Cont Mail} 20:18, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

I'm open to their usage if there's good reason, but in general I think jpeg or png formats are preferable and more widely supported. —⁠Legoless (talk) 20:20, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

I agree on all counts, at least for now. Technically speaking, I think most of our images get some kind of processing at some point, since they usually need to be scaled, but at least at the moment, converting larger webp files, like the Legends ones, seems to be a problem. Until that's fully dealt with, I think we should avoid using webp files altogether unless they're already confirmed as being okay in whatever way they're used. But once things are working as expected, assuming we reach that point, I don't think it should be a huge deal for the wiki to do the requisite conversions, and if that's the case, there's no reason to restrict them. – Robin Hood ^(talk) 00:00, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

request adding PDF to permitted file types for upload

I have created an Oblivion quest checklist similar to Printable Quest Checklist. My checklist is a PDF, not an image. To upload my checklist, I had to ZIP the PDF, as PDF is not allowed but ZIP is allowed. PDF Checklist I have several other PDF lists for Oblivion that I would like to contribute. Please consider adding PDF to the permitted file types for upload.

WaffleHouse2t2 (talk) 03:03, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

Naming different variations of generic NPCs (in this case, Cattle)

I want to upload images of generic NPCs, in this case, the cattle from Morrrowind. However, these NPCs have many variations with the same generic name. For example, there are two female Dark Elf cattle. I currently have them named "Female Dark Elf Cattle 01" and "Female Dark Elf Cattle 02", but this seems to clash with the image naming guidelines set by the Morrowind Overhaul Project, which state "If there is already an image of your subject on the wiki, and your image shows something different and distinct from the first, you should add xx to the end of the name of your image, with xx being the next number available for the image in question. These numbers should always be two characters (so 02 not just 2) and should generally begin at 02, since the first image (without a number) is assumed to be 01. The name thus would be MW-type-name 02.jpg for the second image." Also, the two pre-existing images for cattle are named "MW-npc-Cattle" and "MW-npc-Cattle_02". Should I follow this precedent and name my images "MW-npc-Cattle_03", "MW-npc-Cattle_04", etc. ? Another matter to complicate things is that certain cattle look exactly alike, like the female Dark Elf ones, and I had to verify which was which by checking there ID in the console. Is there anything related to that that I should know? I'm new to the wiki, so I don't know if there's somewhere else I should look for this info, but even if there is, I feel like the information should be provided here, since this is the help page for images. --Eldroth-the-Strange (talk) 03:14, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Bloodmoon has Smugglers, generic NPCs with images named BM-npc-Smuggler-<race> using a _f suffix for female ones. I think, in this case, it makes more sense to follow this precedent, especially since it deals specifically with generic NPCs, rather than the guidelines set by MWOP, which seem to be more applicable to named NPCs. One possible exception is when there are two different-looking generic NPCs of the same race and gender (eg. 2nd female Khajiit Cattle, in which case I'd also recommend a _02 suffix as well.

Feel free to rename the two existing Cattle images or tag them as needing renaming with {{CleanImage}}. Salamangkero (talk) 23:55, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, this clears things up a lot! I'll get to work on renaming the images. I also realized that I didn't really make it that clear why I posted this here instead of the discussion page for Cattle; I was suggesting that guidelines for naming generic NPCs be added to the help page, but looking back at my post, I see that I did that in a pretty roundabout way. Thanks again for clarifying! --Eldroth-the-Strange (talk) 01:40, 4 July 2024 (UTC)