Lore talk:Oghma

Godhood

Is there a source for Oghma being a god? With the sources provided on the page, seems to me that she could easily be a lesser immortal spirit and not a god herself. Mindtrait0r (talk) 06:07, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

We have no better way classify her my dude. Lesser immortal spirits are often still essentially gods. Especially when they have as major a role as wife to another God.Tarponpet (talk) 14:18, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

But by precedent of other entries being in Lore:People and not Lore:Gods, I think Oghma should go to Lore:People, too. Consider Debudjen, Pelinal Whitestrake, Selene, Umaril the Unfeathered, Tsono-Xuhil, Fa-Nuit-Hen, Demi-Prince of Pastries, Tho'at Replicanum, Blind Man, Aetherion, Cernunnon, Spirit of Mount Firesong, and Tutor Riparius. All of these spirits are Lore-People pages. Tutor Riparius, in particular, is of especial similarity to Oghma, being created directly by Fa-Nuit-Hen. Granted, I was the one who made that entry, but it has seen a few edits and none contested his place on Lore-People. Mindtrait0r (talk) 21:59, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

We set a precedent a while back that some individuals are worthy of both a Lore:Gods and Lore:People category with figures like Tiber Septim, Vivec, and Mannimarco getting both. I think several of the examples you named could stand to have both. As for Ogmha, do we have anything whatsoever indicating she was ever mortal? She seems pretty heavily linked to the et'Ada to me more than anything so I would keep her under the god category. Dcking20 (talk) 23:12, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Countless Lore:People pages are immortals, keep in mind that any lich, vampire, Dragon, or Daedra (this is a big one) is immortal. We should not assume she is a god just because she was created by one. We don't consider the Hollow gods, nor lycanthropes, nor the aformentioned vampires and lesser Daedra. All of these beings were created by gods, and in the case of the minor Daedra, plenty of them were directly formed by the gods. If I recall correctly, Torvesard was created directly by Ithelia, yet we don't consider him a god, nor the Daedric Titans. An external source that has not be provided yet is needed to say Oghma belongs more in the Lore:Gods category than Lore:People. Mindtrait0r (talk) 23:19, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

There is technically precedent in both directions here. Lesser Daedra are generally created by a "progenitor Prince" per Whim (LM Archive) and are not gods themselves (Torvesard, the Primordial Shattered Titan, Scions, and Whim herself would be included here for example), but at the same time we do have sources which describe either gods creating other gods, such as in the case of Sep being made by Ruptga or Magrus making his "children" such as Merid out of "pure aether", or Noctra being born of the black blood of the Dark Heart, or of gods raising others to godhood such as Xarxes by Auriel, Arkay by Mara, or Sai by Ebonarm, or even Talos by the Divines per some narratives.

Originating (allegedly) from the actions of a different deity can result either in a being considered a deity and in one considered a non-deity, depending on the context.

Ultimately there's very little information pertaining to Oghma directly. She's wife of Xarxes and was formed out of his favorite moments in history, and we've an exchange between the two prior to their marriage. And that's it. She's formed out of something as abstract as a series of moments in history, she's wife to a major deity, and in the brief exchange she has with Xarxes they discuss as seemingly peers. Personally, it feels a more "natural" reading to me to include her as a deity in the absence of additional information, her being the divine wife of a divine husband, especially if considered in light of sources claiming gods can create or raise other gods.

Admittedly this is one of those cases where a classification has to be applied in the absence of detailed information, since there's no source which goes into her nature beyond the couple of lines in VoF.

Perhaps maintaining the inclusion but adding a note which clarifies that the exact nature of her being and standing among the immortals are not fully understood would suffice ? She is sort of unique in that we don't have any other being described as being somehow formed of moments in history (closest would be Sep being formed of past Worldskins)..--Gleaming Veil (talk) 00:15, 16 December 2024 (UTC)