User talk:Legoless/Arc 2015b

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The Lore Article about Magic.

Do you think that Sword-Singing would be considered as a form of magic? Should we add it to the article or do we lack the information required to make that statement? ChildofKyne (talk) 22:20, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, seems logical. We consider the thu'um and alchemy to be magic, so why not? —Legoless (talk) 22:23, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Are we 100% sure that all sword-singers were Ansei who could form the Shehai? The sword-singers were a group of warriors, yes, and their highest levels could form the Shehai (and the best could actually use it), but I don't think it's totally clear whether all sword-singers were practicing a form of magic. Frankly, there's a lot of redirects to the sword-singers lore page that I thought were tenuous at best and misleading at worst. The biggest reason these areas of magic and Redguard lore is not well laid-out is because they're not very well articulated. Maybe new ESO lore better articulates these things, but the point is, whoever does this is going to have to be very careful not to misstate what we know. Insignificant Revisions^{Threats•Evidence} 23:35, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Lots of information on it in ESO's Alik'r zone. As far as I was aware, sword-singing and Ansei are synonymous, but I could be wrong. —Legoless (talk) 23:37, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

The guild bank again.

Seems like there is an issue of massive withdrawal from the guild bank again. —MortenOSlash (talk) 17:28, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

More officers and a new rank should hopefully prevent this from happening in future, thanks for the heads up! —Legoless (talk) 18:17, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

HaHaHa!!! Thanks for all the items! Suck it! —xAJR187x — Unsigned comment by 75.144.108.174 (talk) at 15:30 on 5 October 2015‎ (UTC)

I understand the user is blocked now, but I think it is trying to mock the wrong guild. It posted more or less the same message on my talk page under the section header "UESP Guild North American mega-server Xbox on", so I guess it thought guilds are the same on every server and platform. —MortenOSlash (talk) 17:57, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Hey, I would like to apologize for my son's behavior on this site. He's the one that robbed your guild bank. (173.19.250.242 13:20, 9 October 2015 (UTC))

Craglorn

Just to fill you in, I am a new user here but long experienced in many different game wikis. Will be filling out details and making correction for Elder Scrolls Online Craglorn quests and locations. I run my guilds through crag days and have most memorized. But occasionally use your pages as cheat sheets to trigger my memory so want them to be more accurate. TY — Unsigned comment by Dreddnawt (talk • contribs) at 16:31 on 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Great! You can look over my changes and the template docs if you need help filling in any more quest stage tables. —Legoless (talk) 16:33, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Hey! I would just like to add that the quest stages should come directly from the game and not just a description of the stage. The individual journal entries for each stage would also be extremely helpful, as we don't currently have a way of logging that via the addon. Jeancey (talk) 16:54, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Q&A Questions Canonicity

Are we treating the users' questions from Loremaster's Archive Q&As as canon material? A lot of the stuff about minotaurs you added comes only from the user-written question, without being addressed or confirmed at all by the Zenimax response. We've seen in the past that user questions are rarely edited, so it is really safe to take anything in them that isn't confirmed by the answer as fact? -- Hargrimm^(T) 17:51, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

We are, and from my own experience ZOS actually do edit the questions. I'm sure they wouldn't publish any questions that were too ridiculous, and the answer given in reply to that minotaur one all but confirms the question's content. There's always a risk of future retcons even with in-game texts, so nothing is strictly "safe", but an officially published article series certainly meets our lorespace guidelines. There's a discussion here if you'd like to make a case against it though; we're already excluding the actual Q&A usernames from lore articles due to community consensus. —Legoless (talk) 17:57, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

In a related question, the part about within a next year we would be able to go to Anvil and Kvatch, do you think that hints at another DLC pack? Jeancey (talk) 18:07, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Seems like it. Schick has hinted at DLC details before, and we know Q1 and Q2 2016 will see the release of Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood. A bit strange that they wouldn't follow the current style of guild questlines spread across the Alliance zones, but I'm not about to complain if we're getting a new Gold Coast zone. If I had to guess I'd say it would be the Thieves Guild DLC, since Abah's Landing and the Pirate Queen seem thematic to that area and guild. Also sounds like Murkmire is planned for Q3. —Legoless (talk) 18:12, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

I had the same concern as Hargrimm when I saw additions like "Ruby Isle" as an alternate name for City Isle, based entirely on a fan question and not a Zenimax answer. In previous Q&As we see some fans have been specifically mentioning the more obscure/MK lore to see if it gets denied or rebuffed, such as memospore, Echkin mythos Uutak Mythos (by IceFireWarden), etc.

From experience, I know in the early days Zenimax did shorten the questions that you send in, but I don't know if the explicitly edited them to relect their understanding of the lore. There is certainly a case to be made for continuing these sort of additions, because if Zenimax disagreed with something that someone asked, they might not publish the question or would edit it. I suppose the best we can do is deal with it case by case carefully, and make sure the reference is always added. --Jimeee (talk) 20:04, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

The mention of Anvil and Kvatch also immediately struck me as a potential hint at new DLCs to me... Also, I think we should still be careful about treating the users' questions as canon. For example, Farrun and its tavern was mentioned in one of the questions for Lady Laurent, and we know from several sources and datamining that Farrun doesn't yet exist, instead there's a similarly named orcish stronghold in its place. Although, to further add to the confusion, Farrun is already mentioned in a few lines of dialogue and books (like Ardent Flame: Draconic or Endemic?) and is even called a "town" there. --Vordur Steel-Hammer (TINV1K) 20:14, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Definitely other sources should be given precedence over third party errors like that, but in cases with no conflicting evidence I think it's safe to use the questions as a reference. It almost sounds like we should expect a Lady Laurent quest involving minotaurs, so perhaps we'll learn more about their "official" origins then. —Legoless (talk) 20:20, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Um, it's "Uutak Mythos" and it's about the Echmer, actually. Sorry, I had to point that out; I'm the one who created it (wink ;)) after all, not MK (although he helped me out in the early stages). But to answer your question, Zenimax does edit out the questions we send in and will outright refuse to answer some as well if Bethesda doesn't want them to touch that subject. --IceFireWarden (talk) 23:56, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Maybe it'd be better to ask Zenimax directly (via e-mail officially on behalf of uesp.net) if we should consider the contents of not-edited questions "approved"? I think they might in fact answer that question if they'd understand the importance of it. Phoenix Neko (talk) 17:14, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

I don't particularly see the need. Both Bethesda and ZOS have disparaged the concept of TES canonicity on several occasions; our lore guidelines are all community-created. —Legoless (talk) 17:19, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

No they didn't. That's why they have loremasters in the first place, that's why they encouraged the cooperation between Lawrence and Kurt, Bruce, and Emile. In any case, there'd be no harm if someone asks, we will know their opinion and as a bonus no more discussions on that topic. Phoenix Neko (talk) 17:33, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Well, pretty recently there was that episode of ESO Live where Schick himself talked about contradictions and the importance of the unreliable narrator in TES. Things like alternate names really have no bearing on the greater canon and are simply added to our lore pages for completeness and for aiding the reader. If someone wants to shoot ZOS a message it certainly wouldn't hurt, but I wouldn't expect an entirely satisfactory response and I don't see the need for UESP to take up that role just to clarify our own internal policies. —Legoless (talk) 18:05, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

"Schick himself talked about contradictions and the importance of the unreliable narrator in TES" - yes, I saw this interview, but which TES he was talking about? Fan-made or developer-made? That's where we're coming close to a slippery slope (something discussed previously). A few days ago they draw a clear line by saying the phrase "community-created column". Pete and Todd both continue saying that only official information is canon. I know many people love to think that there is no canon or whatever, but sooner or later we'll have to face the truth.

What I'm saying here is that there is no big difference between canonizing player names in one hand and canonizing any other information provided by players in another. We agreed we don't canonize the former, but now we argue if we should canonize the latter. Slippery slope? We're on it right now. For example, Echmer is nice, I love them, but no one dev ever commented on their existence (I'm not convinced they even understand what Echmer is), and if today we're adding the information purely from the answers ("Men of Taur" and the whole theory that Belhazra was in fact Minotaur as if it was confirmed info) then tomorrow we'd start adding the Echmer right to the articles. Phoenix Neko (talk) 18:26, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

(←) The difference being that Belhazra the Man-Bull already exists in lore, while Echmer don't. If someone mentioned Landfall in a question we're not gonna go create a Fifth Era article, but the entire purpose of the Q&A series is to allow the community to use it as a platform for clarification purposes. "Slippery slope" is definitely a legitimate concern to have, but it remains an official and in-universe text. Again, I'd encourage bringing it up on the community portal or in the discussion I linked to above if you disagree with using Loremaster's Archive as a source. —Legoless (talk) 18:35, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

In regards to how some devs consider "open source" lore. Yes, Schick has talked about "the unreliable narrator" as mentioned - alternatively Creative Director Paul Sage was answering community questions surrounding ESO's lore. He was asked: "Was the "Elder Scroll of Chim" put in the game to confirm CHIM?" - His answer was:

"The way we approach our lore... is for it to be true... it has to have been something that was actually played in the other games. That doesn't mean that from a certain scholar didn't have a certain slant on history, as scholars will. There has been throughout the Elder Scrolls series... kinda... purposeful books that are written from a certain slant which tend to be retconned in a certain way. I think that's one of the things when you're looking at CHIM as an example of "hey this is something that did appear in a book, this is something that was there" but probably if you'll reveal more about this you'll find out more about what it is."

Take that how you will. It seems mixed. Personally, I think a larger community discussion should be had over this, specifically the new lore added in the Loremaster's Archive questions, and not the answers, lest we fill up Legoless' talk page. --Jimeee (talk) 18:51, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Yes Belhazra does exist, but there was and is no confirmation that he is Minotaur. I totally agree with using the Archives as a source (more so, I regularly translate them all to Russian), but only a devs' part. You may remember Lady Freya's questions as Iszara from the Scenarists' Guild, is it a confirmation that the Guild existed in the Second Era? And another question - we know they edit some questions but do we know what's the purpose of this edits? That's why I suggest asking them about the confirmation of "players' side" of Q&A (what if they approve this, so we could fairly do the Echmer page, what would be great!). I'd do that with a pleasure but I'm not in the position. Phoenix Neko (talk) 19:01, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

@Phoenix Neko, The Library of Dusk: Rare Books refers to Belharza and "Man-Bull", but I get your point. --Jimeee (talk) 19:06, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

I wasn't arguing his existence or his alias. Just clarifying. Phoenix Neko (talk) 19:15, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Guild Trader

Hey! Morten suggested we should get a guild trader and I took the liberty of bidding on one. I donated the bid so didn't break into the guild's funds :P. We won the bid and now have a guild trader located in the Outlaw Refuge in Malabar Tor. Trader's name is Galis Andalen in Velyn Harbor.

--MissKokane (talk) 19:30, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Awesome! Here's hoping we can keep it. —Legoless (talk) 19:32, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

I will donate too. I have also listed a few things now. Let us see if there are any sales.

How large was the winning bid? —MortenOSlash (talk) 19:59, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Abnur Tharn lore page

I've noticed this for awhile, and I would've started on it myself if I had a stable internet connection. But is Chancellor Tharn going to receive a lore page anytime soon? --IceFireWarden (talk) 00:20, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

I was planning on writing one soon-ish, but he should definitely at least have a small entry until a full article can be written. —Legoless (talk) 00:23, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Cool. I'll start working one and hopefully put it up, but you might beat me to it though ha. IceFireWarden (talk) 00:32, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Echkin/Giant Bat

I wanted to formally ask if it would be okay for me to create a lore page for giant bats, or possibly allude to their title of echkin on UESP. I know that my questions I send to the LA tend to dip into my own lore a lot, which is why I understand it if you don't want me to do it. But if you want me too, I will strictly just use the information I sent in through the LAs as references and not my own imaginations. --IceFireWarden (talk) 02:08, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Personally I'd be fine with listing it as an alternate name, but as the discussion above highlights a couple people seem to be afraid of the slippery slope syndrome something like that might create in lorespace. Feel free to make an article on giant bats (and I'll be sure to give it a read to make sure there's no writer bias slipping through), but to be honest it's probably best to discuss including 'echkin' on the Community Portal. Our current rule of thumb would certainly allow its inclusion, but a little community input would help clear up any potential issues of neutrality. —Legoless (talk) 02:43, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Done.--IceFireWarden (talk) 03:12, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

No, problem. Didn't mean to be disrupted at all (that's why I mentioned int the edit summary about why I was reverting, as Phoenix was the one that kept going back and changing it). I'll use the talk page next time.--IceFireWarden (talk) 15:42, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Apology

Yo, I just wanted to say sorry about the Community Portal page about the Echkin/Giant Bats thing. I didn't mean for it to get like that, and was only wondering what you guys wanted to do about the situation. Has it been resolved yet, or do you guys need someone to speak to an ESO Representative still?--IceFireWarden (talk) 15:34, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

No worries, it was good to bring it up! Doesn't seem like a consensus has been arrived at yet though. Until then, it might be most productive if you leave out any info taken from questions when writing the giant bats page. It can always be added in later. —Legoless (talk) 15:40, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Link Talk

Understood. I just don't understand why hardly anyone in the world has completed any ESO Walkthroughs after all these months... Cheers. (Loner XL (talk) 22:17, 10 September 2015 (UTC))

Easy Access To Blank Pages

Hey, I was wondering if there was a way to have an easy access to blank pages without having to go through all the pages missing minor data like health and level. It would make reworking some of them that I passed so much easier. --Ian Da Man (talk) 00:15, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Take a look here. -- SarthesArai ^Talk 23:21, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Thanks! I was desperately looking for a page like this. Was it always there or was I just blind? --Ian Da Man (talk) 00:46, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Whoops, sorry, forgot to get back to you on this. The category Sarthes linked is a 'hidden category', which you probably can't see at the bottom of pages without changing your account preferences. —Legoless (talk) 10:20, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Sneaky!

Hey, any chance your first two questions on the new Loremaster's Archive was a test to check the canon-validity of the LA questions from the horses mouth - per the recent CP discussion :p. Good questions though... Boethiah eh? --Jimeee (talk) 20:28, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

Caught me red-handed haha. On the bright side, guess it makes our decision easy! —Legoless (talk) 20:50, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

Wrothgar VR14 mobs

Back before the launch of Orsinium, you said you'd found some VR14 mobs somewhere in Wrothgar. Can you remember where that was? I haven't run across them myself yet (but I may not have been paying close attention). --Enodoc (talk) 20:08, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Zandadunoz the Reborn was VR14 on PTS and at release. Not sure about any other mobs - VR16 certainly seems to be the norm. —Legoless (talk) 20:10, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

OK thanks! --Enodoc (talk) 20:16, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Just a Question about Respawning in Oblivion

I was just wandering if you could answer this question:

I have created a custom dungeon on Oblivion with an array of many enemies.

All of the enemies show up on first entry into the dungeon.

However, on any additional future entries, only around half appear.

All of the creatures inside have the respawn checkbox in the CS.

Any ideas on what the cause is or how to fix this?

--Manic (talk) 14:31, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

I've heard of the problem before but I can't remember how to fix it. Are you utilising levelled lists or are they individually-placed creatures? Is there any distinction between which respawn and which don't? —Legoless (talk) 14:59, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

The majority are individually placed, but I have noticed that the ones that do respawn correctly the first time, are the only creatures that spawn in future respawns. So essentially, once all of the enemies are killed, the ones that respawn the next time, are the only ones that spawn in future dungeon resets. I tried checking on No Level Processing for all enemies as well, but that doesn't appear to have worked. The only other observation really, is that Creatures tend to take precedence of appearing over NPC enemies. As a side point I'm not sure if their factions are conflicting and they are perhaps killing each other - but this should not be the case, as I have ensured that all enemies have the creature faction in common. But then again I'm not sure if say the Undead faction conflicts with the Daedra faction... etc. --Manic (talk) 16:11, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

If they're enemies unique to your mod, I'd recommend removing them from all base game factions and making your own, at least until you get it working. Try looting them all to see if they're staying dead or respawning and then being killed. —Legoless (talk) 18:39, 16 December 2015 (UTC)