Lore talk:Dragon Language

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Archive 1: Mar 2011 - Feb 2012

Dovahkiin los ok dovahkriid?

What does this sentence mean? 72.68.154.112 04:21, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Translated it means: Dovahkiin is his Dragonslayer. --Killfetzer 23:42, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Pronunciation

Apostrophes:

• I know that the pronunciation throughout the game is very inconsistent, but there are times while people are saying "thu'um" (and other words) that I wonder about it. I feel that the apostrophe indicates one of several things:

1. A glottal stop

2. A long vowel (with the apostrophe simply to indicate that the "uu" isn't one letter, such as "aa" is. (I suppose this matter will require transliteration of dragon inscriptions saying "thu'um")

3. Ornamentation

4. Differentiation from another word that doesn't have an apostrophe

5. Indication of omitted parts

• I'm leaning toward number two.
• Next-up, is the R's pronunciation dependent upon what language-version the game is? If not, it is likely intended to be the English R -- especially considering the language's status as essentially a relexiconization of English.
• The vowels are likely to have been intended to come with a lax vs. tense distinction (like, the rounded near-close back vowel vs. the rounded close back vowel).
• It would appear (from conversations with Paarthurnax) that the 'aa' is simply /a/ (the 'a' in 'father'), whereas the 'a' is /ae/ (like 'a' in 'cat'). I must confess that I was really hoping for 'å'.  :P

Note that this observation is solely of Paarthurnax's pronunciation of his name. There is no consistency in pronunciation besides how one would expect an untrained English speaker to pronounce the words. As Paarthurnax is his name, I am going to assume that they at least stressed it's pronunciation to the voice-actor.

• In final positions, the 'H' appears to be either silent, a French R / a transition to creaky voicing, or in free variation between the two. I believe the developers included the 'h' in 'Dovah' because this 'h' sounds sort of like a dragon growling.
• In front positions, I'm pretty sure the 'h' is just like English's 'h'.

That is all for now,

~Sweyn78 — Unsigned comment by 69.247.252.160 (talk) at 20:14 on 13 March 2012

EDIT: With words like "joor" (and I know the actors are unfortunately pronouncing the 'oo' as they would in English), and the existence of 'aa' and 'ii', I wonder if the doubling of vowels was not intended to be the sole distinction between lax and strong vowels. If this is true, and given that most of the language follows English's phonology (though it follows not its orthography), then we can assume that the apostrophe was not intended per use #2 that I previously suggested.

...Unless it's a really poorly made conlang that follows every rule of English grammar and pronunciation (per orthography and otherwise), in which case I must say that I am very disappointed, Bethesda.  :(

What are everyone else's thoughts on this?  :) — Unsigned comment by 69.247.252.160 (talk) at 20:22 on 13 March 2012

As far as I can tell, as Parthuurnax states in-game, words like Jor which means "Mortal" is singular, whereas Joor is plural because of the extra O. Which when applied to the word Thu'um doesn't make sense, to expand the word to make it plural would make it Thuu'um or Thu'uum which may be the reason for breaking the word up in the first place or its possible that Thu'um isn't a literal translation and that it means something similar, yet entirely different in english. Once more Parthuurnax states in-game that the mortal tongue is limited and that the dragons have many words for things that they do not. — Unsigned comment by Chronic (talk • contribs) at 23:16 on 26 March 2012

I am not exactly sure as to what official pronunciations Bethesda intended, as the voice actors seem to be quite varied in their pronunciation occasionally. For instance, in Kynesgrove Alduin says "do hi" and pronounces it "du hai", as if they were the English words. He also drops the e sound at the end of "joorre". Also, J seems to be pronounced as it is in English, though in some words like "Silesejoor", the actors pronounce it as a Y. The dragon compound letters "EY" and "EI" seem to be pronounced "ei" and "ai", respectively. However, I noticed some instances of this mixing and even an "EI" pronounced as "ee". Another thing I might add, I'm pretty puzzled about the whole "AA" and "AH" difference. It seems "A" is used as it is in English (both "cat" and "tall") and "AA" is just a lengthening. I would expect that "AH" would also be a lengthening also. The only difference between "AA" and "AH" as I have found is that the h is sometimes pronounced like a German "ch" with no real reason. That's what I have to add. — Unsigned comment by 67.48.25.33 (talk) at 22:16 on 6 October 2012‎

If there are no tenses...

...How can "Nahlot" be "silenced" - ie. the past tense of silence? Surely it must therefore be referred to as "silence"? --Kvaener 00:16, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

I would change it myself, but I'm always a bit apprehensive about editing the page directly... --Kvaener 00:24, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

It can be an adjective. elliot (talk) 00:26, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

The only occurrence of it is in a song:

"Nuz aan sul, fent alok, fod fin vul dovah nok, fen kos nahlot mahfaeraak ahrk ruz!"

"But a day, shall arise, when the dark dragon's lies, will be silenced forever and then!"

Thus, it's an adjective. Vely^{►Talk►Email} 00:29, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Elsewhere in the Dragon Language, they have many words whose tense depends entirely upon the context. Although it appears that there is a rule for past tense (+aan at the end of a word), it is rarely followed, and future tense is all but nonexistent. Dragons must not have much use for tense, due to their extreme longevity. • JA^Talk 00:54, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

It's not tense. It's perfective aspect and passive voice, which in English are conveyed by past-tense word + an auxiliary verb ("have silenced", "to be silenced"). That is, the act of silencing Alduin is finished, and Alduin, though the sentence is about him, is the one it happened to (not the one who did it)—it would be more accurately translated "a day comes when the dark dragon's lies have permanently undergone the-act-of-silencing". Lots of languages actually don't have tenses, only aspects, including Arabic and Tagalog. Personally I think it's not so much that dragons are long-lived as that they "sail the winds of time"; something that experiences time differently wouldn't have verb tenses, "tense" actually coming from the Norman French word for time. 184.98.90.52 02:52, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Contractions

Seems like the Dovah Tinvaak (or what would the correct word for "language" be? Thu'um are only the shouts...) is also using contractions more frequently than, say, English. I wonder how this works with pre- and postfixes that change the meaning, most prominently Vo- for "opposite". I see that there is no word for "south", but a word for "north" ("brom"). So, would "south" be "vobrom"? Would this make the Dragon of the North "dovahsebrom" in the south a "dovahsevobrom"? Or would the prefix go before the whole contracted word, making it "vodovahsebrom"? This would be rather ambiguous, assuming that something like an un-dragon exists. WooShell 17:06, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

The prefix goes before the word it's altering, so it would be "Dovahsevobrom". • JA^Talk 19:21, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Clarifying Plurals

Mentioned above is the word Jor, meaning Mortal, and how Joor is the plural form, Mortals. Yet on the language page it says To make a word plural, two letters are added to the end of the word, the first being the last letter in the singular form, and the second being an "e". So by that law it would be Jorre. Kind of ambiguous.

Using the word Day, Sul, it would be spelled Suul and Sulle respectively to make the word Days.

So which is it? And if there are exceptions, what are they? — Unsigned comment by 72.188.216.251 (talk) at 13:55 on 28 June 2012

I think that was a misunderstanding on Chronic's part. Paarthurnax says this line in particular:

"So. You have made your way here, to me. No easy task for a joor... mortal. Even for one of Dovah Sos. Dragonblood."

There is no word "Jor". There is the word "Joor", whose plural is the word "Joorre". Realize, though, that there is no official guide to the Dragon language. Any of the rules that you see here are based on careful observation of the few commonalities within the language, and thus are both subject to be wrong and subject to change. However, I can say with a high degree of certainty that the rules currently listed are all true, and that the vast majority of words follow them. Just like English, there are exceptions to the rules, but the rules are still quite valid. • JA^Talk 19:16, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

How do you translate these words?

I was curious on two dragons names from Dawnguard, "Naaslaarum" and "Voslaarum" and I have no idea on how to do this. Do you have to use existing words or is there a way to understand there meaning?--SamGhadiali 03:00, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

You use existing words. As with Alduin, Paarthurnax, and Odahviing, their names are a combination of existing words. It seems in this case, though, that there is no appropriate translation. Perhaps a new book was added in Dawnguard with more information on them or their names? • JA^Talk 22:27, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

New or overlooked Dragon Words

I started a new game today with the expressed intent of writing down every word spoke/written in dragon and translate it. right out of the gate, when Alduin was flying around killing everything in Helgen when he said. "Fen du hin sille ko Sovngarde!" Now I translated that to "Will devour your *blank* in Sovngarde!" My problem is I can't find "sille" on any list of dragon words. Given the circumstances under which he said it I think its merely the pleural form of soul (as Sil means soul). Ergo sille means souls. Thoughts? Ho yes and here is a picture too, in case it helps [1] Kremlin16 15:46, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Since when a Nord die's his soul goes there and Helgen was full of Nords, I think your translation is pretty solid. --SamGhadiali 16:10, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

From the article: To make a word plural, two letters are added to the end of the word, the first being the last letter in the singular form, and the second being an "e". —Legoless 16:45, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

woops missed that bit. ah well thanks. Kremlin16 05:56, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

New words?

I believe there are new words added to the language because the Official Elder Scrolls wiki has "Askk - Love". I've went through both of these wikis a long time ago to compile every word into my own list and verify each word's correctness and there was never a word for "love". I know this because I also tried using it in a sentence and couldn't find it so I'm guessing from Dawngard there are new words spoken from the new dragon Durnehviir. Maybe somebody can go through and make sure and if so add them. 96.35.82.3 03:21, 11 July 2012 (UTC) Nol

That word does not exist anywhere in Skyrim, even with the Dawnguard add-on. That appears to be unsourced info, so whoever added it was incorrect. Also, it doesn't follow the Dragon tongue very well - the letter combination "kk" is never used in the Dragon Language. • JA^Talk 04:02, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Ah that's what I thought since it's pointless to have kk. I do know now that there are new words now thought because there is one for Zombie and the new shout added in Dawnguard adds words for "Stamina", "Magicka", and "Health" so there are definitely new words. Nol 96.35.82.3 23:00, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Bahlaan?

When watching a gameplay video of Skyrim with subtitles, at the scene where the Greybeards all speak to you as a final test they subtitles say "balaan" but on this wiki it's spelled "Bahlaan". Which one is correct? Nol 96.35.82.3 01:14, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

[Edit]

Also, why isn't there any citations to Greybeard dialogue? They have a small part in the dragon dialogue in-game and it would refine the accuracy of some words. If I knew how to add all of the necessary citations and such I'd do it myself but out of fear of messing something up I'll leave it to a more wiki-savvy person to make the proper additions. — Unsigned comment by 96.35.82.3 (talk) at 01:24 on 26 July 2012

It has two spellings, both with the same meaning, so I altered the entry. It would unneccessary to add references for any words already referenced. The Silencer speaks^Talk 01:31, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Then why is there multiple references for the majority of the other words? - Nol 96.35.82.3 14:46, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Drem Yol Lok-Another possible translation could be "good flying weather"

I am moving this here from the page. It certainly is not a literal translation and I doubt we can ever confirm that this meaning is why it is the equivalent of "good day" for dragons. I suspect it is a speculation about the meaning of "peace fire sky" as there were discussions to this effect earlier. If anyone knows better then please state your reasons here and add it back to the page sourced. Thanks! Coronus 15:48, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

I think you have a good point there, Coronus. I've been discussing it with a friend a while ago and he suggested something similar on how dragons use wind currents to fly so to wish another "good flying weather" might be similar to how we sometimes greet others by saying "Good morning/afternoon/night". ~Nol 24.231.215.21 05:34, 25 October 2012 (GMT)

earth

It says that the dragon word for earth is derived from odahviing's dialogue but it is also used by paarthurnax during your fight with alduin on throat of the world he says alduin is to strong on the wing bring him down to gol with dragonrend. — Unsigned comment by 82.73.72.148 (talk) at 18:41 on 11 October 2012

Zol

I thought Zol = Zombie, not "More". It's used in the shout that comes with the Dawngauard DLC called Soul Tear that uses the words Rii Vaaz Zol or "Essence Tear Zombie". It even says so on this Wiki. Nol (talk) 05:27, 25 October 2012 (GMT)

Thanks for pointing that out. I've added the meaning to "Zol." I'm not sure if Zol = Most (just corrected that from "more" after checking the game data) is a typo or not. I believe it only occurs once (right here 000e16ff) in Skyrim and "Zok" means "most" so it would be an easy mistake. — Unsigned comment by Coronus (talk • contribs) at 20:25 on 13 November 2012‎

I see now how it had the definition but I still don't see how it is also used in that shout unless it has a double meaning. I'm pretty sure the shout means what I said above so I'm a bit puzzled at this. Nol (talk) 02:53, 27 November 2012 (GMT)

Strange Page Layout

The layout is strange for me. For example at Y, "Yol" is displayed in the first column, but the transtlation "Fire" is displayed in the second column. This effect is even more confusing for letters with more content like S. Is this the same for other people or is it just my dated browser? --Alfwyn (talk) 17:53, 31 October 2012 (GMT)

It's not just you. It displays like that in Firefox and Chrome, and in IE it's just one long list.--Anil (talk) 18:01, 31 October 2012 (GMT)

Ditto; the columns need work. If it doesn't display right in Firefox, it doesn't display right. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 18:04, 31 October 2012 (GMT)

I just did a quick test, and it looks like we'll have to manually create a table for each letter, which will increase the article's size tremendously. • JA^T 23:43, 31 October 2012 (GMT)

Could we not just use a three cell table for every letter? That shouldn't have much effect on the size. --Alfwyn (talk) 23:46, 31 October 2012 (GMT)

That would work. • JA^T 00:21, 1 November 2012 (GMT)

What happened to Kun (Light)?

I noticed that the word Kun (Light) is no longer there and the definition has been transferred to the word Jun (King) so now Jun means both "king" and "light".

Vokun (Shadow) derived from Kun (Light) the the Vo- prefix added before it to switch its meaning to "shadow". Does that now mean that the word for shadow is really Vojun? If that's the case and the word is a double meaning, wouldn't Vojun also mean the opposite of a king, i.e. "peasant"? Nol (talk) 20:12, 20 November 2012 (GMT)

Possession

I'm a bit unsure of how possession is supposed to work, as the explanation is a bit unclear. Is the indicative letter (the "i" for singular possession or the "u" for plural) added the possessor, like in English with its apostrophes and "s"es, or to the possessed object, similar to a "de" in Spanish and French?

98.18.73.220 06:27, 25 November 2012 (GMT)

I'm pretty sure the singular possession -i goes after the word that the person possesses because I've looked through the dialogue in-game and remember seeing the word Miri. Mir = Allegiance so Miri must have translated to "my allegiance". I believe the dragon that Alduin resurrects speaks this word to Alduin after bringing him back to life but I forget his name. Nol (talk) 02:44, 27 November 2012 (GMT)

If that is indeed the case, as your example would suggest, it should probably be mentioned in that section. I don't know about you guys, but when I read it, it felt very hazy on the placement. 98.18.73.220 03:30, 12 December 2012 (GMT)

Sonaan = Dragon Priest or Dragonborn?

Two word walls were added by the Dragonborn DLC, both for the shout Dragon Aspect, that use the word "Sonaan" in a context that sounds like it means something else. The word walls are below:

Dragon AspectDB
Found in: Apocrypha (Waking Dreams), Raven Rock Mine, and Temple of Miraak
Mul	P4 WERID MOROK2 M71K ZOK SUL9K1R DO P4 SON1K WEN MUL BOL1V N1L F4LU1N DO JUL	All praise glorious Miraak Most power(ful) servant of all Dragon Priests, whose strength (was) granted by (the) gardener of mankind
	Pah WERID MOROKei MiraaK ZOK SULeyKaaR DO Pah SONaaK WEN MUL BOLaaV NaaL FahLUaaN DO JUL
Qah	HET ONT KR3ST M71K WO 4T3R OK S4VOT OL Q4 SP1N N1L D9RA F4 OK UNSL1D MIDUN	Here once stood Miraak who wore His faith as armor, shield(ed) by Daedra for his eternal loyalty
	HET ONT KRiiST MiraaK WO ahTiiR OK SahVOT OL Qah SPaaN NaaL DeyRA Fah OK UNSLaaD MIDUN
Diiv	QETHSEGOL V4RUKIV LOT M71K SON1K DO LOT ONIK1N 1R DO F1L D3V 4RK HOKORON DO JUL	(This) stone commemorates great Miraak: Dragon Priest of great wisdom, servant of the wyrm, and enemy of mankind
	QETHSEGOL VahRUKIV LOT MiraaK SONaaK DO LOT ONIKaaN aaR DO FaaL DiiV ahRK HOKORON DO JUL

The way I read it, it could either mean "Dragon Priest" or "Dragonborn". I think it's most likely the first of these definitions. Thoughts? • JA^T 06:47, 20 December 2012 (GMT)

Why would they need a second word for Dragonborn? "Dovahkiin" is Dragonborn. —Legoless (talk) 18:22, 20 December 2012 (GMT)

Different context, maybe? But yes, I'm fairly certain that it means "Dragon Priest". • JA^T 19:20, 20 December 2012 (GMT)

As there was no opposition to this, I added the translation Sonaan = Dragon Priest to the article. • JA^T 03:02, 4 January 2013 (GMT)

Sindugahvon?

Where did "Sindugahvon" come from and why does it not have any sources? Nol (talk) 00:55, 3 January 2013 (GMT)

Hard to tell, as it was added by an anonymous user 74.83.48.222 at 15:51, 9 December 2011‎ (GMT) with only the comment: "Added 'Sindugahvon, Unyielding. Translated from dragon wall in-game." The same anonymous user added the word "Rot" a few minutes later, but that has later been given a source, so I guess at least that one is OK, even if the source of "Sindugahvon" is more difficult to tell. —MortenOSlash (talk) 18:31, 21 July 2013 (GMT)

It comes from the word wall for Ice Form. Jeancey (talk) 19:07, 21 July 2013 (GMT)

So I guess there should be no reason not to just add the source and be content? I usually trouble a bit with template syntax, so I guess it is the wiser choice to leave it to someone more competent than me. —MortenOSlash (talk) 20:00, 21 July 2013 (GMT)

Dragon Language: Myth No More missing citations

While looking through the DL:MNM page and comparing the citations (the words with "[1]") he found that not every word in the book is cited on the page like Wen (Whose). If someone has the time, they should go through and check every word to make sure it's cited on the word list page. Nol (talk) 12:33, 3 January 2013 (GMT)

Which words are not cited? Wen is cited on the page. It just has another source, not from DL:MNM. Jeancey (talk) 07:17, 3 February 2013 (GMT)

Elder Scrolls Online = New language content?

Even though ESO is being made by a different company, there might be a chance that some dragon language is discovered in the game. It's not out of the question that the devs working on ESO would ask to borrow their language and maybe (hopefully) add on to it. This would create more canon words for anyone looking to learn the language. Nol (talk) 12:36, 3 January 2013 (GMT)Nol

Actually, the language is already complete. I'm learning it now. Creating new words would be like meaning the same. i.e.: kein = sun, but so does shul. — Unsigned comment by 75.3.205.215 (talk) at 04:59 on 6 March 2013

'Palace' vs Dragonsreach

Hofkahsejun is noted here as referring to Dragonsreach, where Hofkah merely means a dwelling. 'sejun' would imply Dwelling of the/a King, or Palace. To me, it sounds as though Paarthurnax is referring implicitly to Dragonsreach, the nearest and contextually important Jarl's palace. — Unsigned comment by 138.251.252.239 (talk) at 13:40 on 14 March 2013

I think you are correct. Hofkahsejun means, literally, steading-of-king, or a palace. Reading the two lines of dialogue that mention Hofkahsejun, it doesn't appear that the word means "Dragonsreach" at all - it just means "palace". Below are the two lines, both spoken by Paarthurnax:

• 0004591b: "Perhaps the hofkahsejun - the palace in Whiterun... Dragonsreach. It was originally built to house a captive dovah."
• 00045d09: "The hofkahsejun has been known as Dragonsreach ever since."

In the second one, hofkahsejun could be interpreted to mean "Dragonsreach", but it's clear in the first one that it actually means "palace". If no one else objects, I will update the article accordingly. • JA^T 14:52, 14 March 2013 (GMT)

A word we may want to add

Though I've never explicitly seen it on its own in the wikis, "Se" seems to mean "of". You can see it in words like Dinoksetiid (End-se-Time), Junnesejer (Kings-se-East), Qethsegol (Bones-se-Earth), and Vennesetiid (currents-se-time). Could we add it (if someone is looking through the dragon language, it's an important word to have listed)? XERAXES (talk) 23:33, 14 March 2013 (GMT)

It is already listed. :) First column, under S, fourth from the bottom. Jeancey (talk) 23:40, 14 March 2013 (GMT)

...so it is. Ctrl+F failed me. --XERAXES (talk) 02:27, 16 March 2013 (GMT)

Dragon Priest Names

i was translating, or at least trying to translate, the names of the masked dragon priests and was wondering if they should be listed with the named dragons in the section at the bottom of the page. also, i was having some trouble with hevnoraak volsung and rahgot, getting only as far as Brutal Horror and Gods respectively — Unsigned comment by 70.211.65.145 (talk) at 21:37 on 18 October 2013

The translations of the priests' names are already listed on their respective articles, so there's no need to list them here. ThuumofReason (talk) 21:44, 18 October 2013 (GMT)

I disagree. Unlike dragon names, the dragon priest names aren't compound words. They should be listed, even if we don't have a translation. A link to Lore:Names#Dragon would also be a good addition I think. —Legoless (talk) 12:38, 19 October 2013 (GMT)

Is Dovah a composite word?

I just noticed reading this that the word for "dragon," Dovah, looks like a composite of do and vah, meaning "Of Spring." Am I crazy or does anyone else see that? Quill-On-Paper (talk) 02:02, 20 November 2013 (GMT)

It's no more a composite word than nowhere is a composite of now here. It's just a coincidence. Jeancey (talk) 02:24, 20 November 2013 (GMT)

Gro and ulse

Alduin says to the first dragon he resurrects"sahloknir, ziil gro dovah ulse", which translates to "soul bound dragon eternity of" that should mean that" Gro" means bound. though ulse is just "eternity of" when "of" makes no appearance in the phrase. Ithink the definition of Gro should be made to bound. — Unsigned comment by Casimir the strong (talk • contribs) at 22:48 on 27 February 2014

The translation of "Ziil gro dovah ulse!" is "Your soul is bound to me for eternity!" not the literal translation, which the definition of those four words when taken out of context. Jak Attacka found a source for Ulse and changed the two words in the phrase but neglected to change the words in the listings, so hopefully he can provide a source that isn't circular. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 23:03, 27 February 2014 (GMT)

Alduin speaks these three lines when he resurrects three different dragons throughout the game. Each entry lists the translation as well under the notes. For instance, the first line has the note "Vuljotnaak! Your soul is bound to me for eternity!" (basically starting to cast a spell) (Vuljotnaak = Dark Maw Eat). It looks like I forgot to update the stated definition of Gro, so I fixed that. "Ulse" should not have been listed, because it's just a combination of Ul + se. • JA^T 00:37, 28 February 2014 (GMT)

Pronunciation?

the pronunciations i know of are aa, ah, ei/ey, ii, ir/ur, and oo. that's all that's listed on the wiki. but there are words like "ag" (burn) and "dilon" ::(dead). "a" and "i" and "o" are not listed. how are these pronounced? 70.171.118.88 03:09, 18 April 2014 (GMT)

Missing word "hi"

I might have missed it, but I couldn't see the word "hi" on the dragon language page, meaning "you". It is said by Alduin during A Blade In The Dark ("zu'u koraav nid nol dov do hi"). I would add it if I knew how, but unfortunatly I don't. 86.155.215.247 19:16, 20 August 2014 (GMT)

Since "Him/Hin" are believed to be "Your", "Hi" as "You" makes sense, so I've gone ahead and added it. Thanks for the info. – Robin Hood  ^(talk) 16:11, 21 August 2014 (GMT)

The data confirms it too, here. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 17:34, 21 August 2014 (GMT)

Kul and Vokul

So, apparently Son (Kul) is the opposite of Evil (Vokul). Is this intentional or do you think there was some miscommunication when the language was first being put together? I guess it could make sense on a sort of metaphorical level, saying something about how Dragons view sons, if not for the fact that I'm pretty sure Dragons don't reproduce. Anyway, if that's what the translations really are, then I guess it's best to keep them as is, but perhaps make some note next to Vokul, so people don't mistakenly infer that Kul means Good or something.169.233.5.145 08:29, 24 February 2015 (GMT)

Possible new words

Words

Axe — Hahkun Bel — Summon Bii — Blue Deinmaar — Keeper Deyto — Bury Erei — Until Goraan — Young Graag — Green Gram — Cloud Gruth — Betrayal Hahvulon — Nightmare Henvoraak — Brutality Hofkiin — Home Hungaar — Heroic Jud — Queen Kiim — Wife Kip — Food Kipraan — Meal Kras — Sick Krasnovaar — Disease Kriivah — Murder Lon — Fist Mahlaan — Fallen Middovahhe — Loyalists/Allies (dragons) Miiraad — Door/Doorway Mindol — Trick Mindoraan — Understanding Mon — Daughter Naar — Summit Nil — Void Ont — Once Oth — Orphan Ozinvey — Ivory Pel — Write Rahgron — Angry Rath — River Reyth — Tree Rot — Word(s) Wol — Oak Zein — Worship Zeymahzin — Companion Zorox — Create

Prima has a English-Dragon word list which has many more words not listed here. I am very suspicious of this list, not least because it omits about half the already sourced translations, but also because it has many words that are not used in the game at all (at least where I can find), and the amount of 'new' words is just so massive I don't believe no-one has noticed them before. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 21:50, 17 May 2015 (GMT)

Vonmindoraan meaning?

I was replaying the Throat of the World quest in Skyrim, and checking this page to translate Paarthurnax's remarks, and I noticed that the meaning for Vonmindoraan given here ("incomphrehensible idea") does not match the way it is used by Paarthurnax. He says: "(Dragonrend) was said to force a dragon to experience the concept of Mortality. A truly vonmindoraan… incomprehensible idea to the immortal dov." If vonmindoraan meant "incomprehensible idea" (a noun) the the passage would read: "a true vonmindoraan... incomprehensible idea for the immortal dov" which is not the case.

Furthermore, "Vonmindoraan" is very similar in spelling and in meaning (whichever of the above meanings one believes) to "Vomindok", "Unknown". This similarity of spelling and meaning has a great deal of precedent in the dragon language. Just for words starting with V, we can see "Viin","shine" with "Viintaas", "shining" and "Vul" "dark" with "Vulom" "Darkness" and "Vulon" "Night". Lastly, as shown on the page, compound words are rare in the dragon language, and when they appear, they are composed of easily discernible smaller words, such as "Strundu'ul" "Stormcrown" from "Strun" "storm" + "Du'ul" "crown". While "Vonmindoraan" does contain the listed word "Aan" "idea", at the end, the meaning of "Aan" as "idea" is itself cited to Paarthurnax's dialogue, likely this same instance! The syllable "Aan" also appears in dozens of other dragon words, but in no other cases is it considered to signify "idea".

So, for all these reasons, I think that "Vommindoraan" means only "incomphrehensible" not "incomprensible idea", and also that "Aan" does not mean "Idea".

I would like to change the page to reflect this.

Thoughts? Objections?

Bookwyrm1357 (talk) 23:03, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

"A truly incomprehensible idea to the immortal dragons." That's my reading of the sentence. "A true incomprehensible idea for the immortal dov" is not a grammatical sentence. We cannot break down Vonmindoraan on the page because we don't have a source for any of the broken down parts except for aan (an or slave (excluding idea), neither of which fits very well), and comparing it to other words with different spellings is... incomprehensible. Further to this, if aan's only source for 'idea' is this word, then it needs removed because, as I've already said, there is no source for a breakdown, and it would result in Vonmindor meaning incomprehensible.

Translations are usually emphasized when given in dialogue, and when Paarthurnax speaks he places the emphasis on "incomprehensible idea". There's no other reason for him to emphasize the word idea in that sentence when he speaks.

Incomprehensible and Unknown are not the same thing, one is an inability to understand, the other a lack of information.

In short I support Aan=idea being taken away if this is the only source, but object to changing the meaning of Vonmindoraan being changed. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 01:16, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

I read it that, as on other occasions, Paarthurnax is restating a dragon word in English so that the player can understand, as in "No easy task for a joor… mortal. Even for one of Dovah Sos. Dragonblood".

"True" would describe a noun, "Truly" a verb or adjective. As I understand it, you are saying "vonmindoraan" is one word, a noun, meaning "incomprehensible idea". Imagine, for the sake of examining grammar, we replace vonmindoraan (meaning: incomprehensible idea) with "enigma" (another noun with a similar meaning).

It would be incorrect to say "a truly enigma, an incomprehensible idea". One should say "a true enigma, an incomprehensible idea".

The point is, if vonmidoraan were a noun referring to a type of idea (specifically, an incomprehensible one) then using an adverb to modify it would be incorrect. But if vonmindoraan were an adjective, meaning "incomprehensible; unable to be understood", then using an adverb to modify it would be correct. While it is certainly possible that it is simply an error in the game (God knows, there are plenty of them), I think that we should assume that the sentence was written correctly unless shown otherwise. And if the sentence is correct as it stands, vonmindoraan must not be a noun.

Lastly, about the word "aan", the citation given for the meaning "idea" is to "Paarthurnax's dialogue in Skyrim". That's a lot of dialogue, so one can't be sure which part. I've listened to a great deal of his dialogue, and I know of no instances where the word "aan" alone is used to mean idea (and no relevant words at all except vonmindoraan). However, this does not necessarily mean they don't exist. On the other hand, it is all too easy to imagine someone thinking: "if 'vonmindoraan' means 'incomprehensible idea', and a very similar word, vomindok, contains no hint of the word idea, then the syllable, 'aan' must mean idea!"

In short, I don't know of any other source for that meaning, but one might still exist (though if it does, it should be found).Bookwyrm1357 (talk) 02:39, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Grammar as we know it only applies to proper English language, like for our translated sentences. It can't be applied to broken English, using a mix of two languages, one of which has no known grammar rules, and where words when put together morph into more than just the basic literal meaning of the words, and encompass more than just the spoken word to understand (eg the target of the sentence, who is speaking, etc). Don't forget that Paarth also stops mid-sentence and goes back to make himself understood, which he doesn't always do when he slips into speaking Dragon, further hampering any attempts to apply grammar to the start of one sentence and the end of another while pretending they are one. Trying to deconstruct a supposed compound word is easy when you know the words it can be broken into, but in this case we don't, and there are cases where a long word cannot be broken down or a compound has a different enough meaning that it becomes its own word.

In cases like this you do not apply ill-conceived ideas about grammar or spelling (the alleged double spelling mistake), you listen to the speaker and understand the message they are trying to convey, which, when he tries to articulate the meaning of the word he just used (vonmindoraan), he came out with 'incomprehensible idea'. There is an audible gap afterwards to let the meaning sink in before he moves on with the sentence.

You've already tried to apply "Unknownable" to vonmindoraan on the page through this method of original research (the alleged double-misspelling in order to make your argument work), and along with multiple cases of OR on Paarthurnax's page in a hopefully just misguided attempt at better comprehension of the subject, the basis of your arguments are extremely shaky. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 05:02, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Little as I'd like to admit it, you are right about not being able to break down dragon words at will or apply English grammar to the dragon tongue. Therefore, I agree that unless new evidence should arise (unlikely) the current meaning should be the one listed on UESPwiki. I personally still disagree, but I no longer feel there is enough evidence to change the translation here. You are also right about translating "vonmidoraan" as "unknowable". That was based almost entirely on similarity to another word listed, which is insufficient grounds for a translation.

However, I do not think my translations qualify as "original research". Far from it. All of my translations (as far as I recall), with the exception of the word we just argued about, were taken directly from this page. I did add (clearly marked by parentheses) a few connective/verb tense English words to the translation, if I felt that it was necessary to make the sentence understandable. I have seen this done on other pages which translate dragon language (such as Odahviing's) without parentheses to mark the added words.

If you could point out (on my talk page, since this isn't really related to this article specifically anymore) some examples of what you consider to be inappropriate original research, I would appreciate it. It was not my intention include faulty information, only to help readers understand the dragon language. If I went too far, I would appreciate specific examples (and your reasoning for why something goes too far) so that it does not happen again. Bookwyrm1357 (talk) 06:19, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Any additional words added to translations to improve its readability that is not sourceable is OR. For translations the line is simple, anything added is OR; on other pages you are making statements based on sources. I've fixed Odahviing's translations. Dragon Language is at a quite basic level of understanding right now, and we have a duty as an encyclopedia to provide only hard facts. There have been cases where incorrect information on our pages leads to community-wide misinterpretation, which has then been used to provide evidence of why our page is "correct". Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 11:37, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Dragons on the Throat of the world

Should perhaps the names of the three dragons that appear on the peak of the Throat of the World after the main questline has been comleted be added to the page, namely Gaafkrokulaan, Hevnofokriid and Toormaarfeyn? Respectively Ghost-sorcerer-prince, Brutal-frost-slayer and Inferno-terror-bane. On another note, these three dragons are mentioned nowhere on this wiki (nor the elderscrolls.wikia.com for that matter). I am almost certain they are not from any mods I have installed, so I find this strange. The only time google finds either of those names mentioned (that is not an asian site or a papyrus log) is on a single reddit post from half a year ago. — Unsigned comment by 212.45.46.64‎ (talk • contribs) at 11:27 on 5 August 2015‎

The names you provided don't appear anywhere in the CS, so there are no such dragons in the game. Maybe you some kind of a mod which replaces the generic dragons from that scene by named ones? --Vordur Steel-Hammer (TINV1K) 12:46, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Is that so? Mhmm strange. I don't have any mods that claim to do that (at least in the description) but it may have slipped by. The dragons stay after the scene you mentioned has played, they just chill on the peak with Paarthurnax forever (or, well, until you kill them because you are a power-hungry battlemage ;) ). Thank you for checking Vordur, apologies for the inconvenience. — Unsigned comment by 212.45.46.64 (talk) at 14:04 on 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Edit: After checking my mods, turns out it is in fact one of my mods that added them. It didn't use the names in the description so that's why searching for the names didn't help the first time. Apologies for the inconvenience again. I'll properly do my homework next time. — Unsigned comment by 212.45.46.64 (talk) at 14:10 on 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Missing Dragon name

I realize this is an old page, but I've been replaying Skyrim since the remastered version came out and I noticed the name Numinex was missing from the known dragon names list. I've also noticed after attempting to translate his name that there is only a partial translation. I've searched the internet, but there doesn't seem to be any information for Ex. The closest translation I can come up with would be slightly different spelling to make it Numiinnax Now-Eye-Cruelty. (50.4.11.27 08:13, 13 December 2016 (UTC))

No wiki article is ever 'old'. The only known translation is Nu for Now. It appears his name was not conceived with the language in mind. I've started a section on untranslated names. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 18:44, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

There's also the twin dragons Naaslaarum and Voslaarum from the dg add on, with the only translation of Vo - opposite of.(50.4.11.27 07:44, 14 December 2016 (UTC))

None of the DLC dragons were there except Durnehviir. I've reworded the line too as most of the vanilla dragons were given translations in the game data, but the DLC ones have only been translated from already known words. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 12:28, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

Dovahkiin No

The first dragon you kill says this when you kill him, but what does no mean. Is it an untranslated word, or is he speaking in English? — Unsigned comment by ‎50.4.11.27 (talk) at 21:50 on 19 December 2016 (UTC)

Considering that most of the rest of his dialogue is in the common tongue, it's not an untranslated word. See Skyrim:Mirmulnir. He is expressing surprise at the realization he was fighting against a Dohvakiin. --AKB ^{Talk Cont Mail} 21:50, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

Vus

Vus was removed from the list of words, but there are several other instances where it is translated on the wiki. These are Tsun's page (hover text) and the Dragon Shouts page in a note. Should those be removed or is there a reference missing? —Dillonn241 (talk) 15:39, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

I can't see a translation of the word in the cslist. The only two uses of the shout are Tsun and Durnehviir ("The free air of Vus"). The first instance of the translation came on 1st January 2012 on the Dragon Shouts page, after several others had modified the same note, and all of the earlier edits had failed to translate the word but had done the other two. The next mention came on this talk page in March, claiming an untranslated word had been found. I suspect the edits to Tsun and especially Summon Durnehviir relied upon the shouts page translation as their source. The only possibility is that the word is translated in the CK in a way that the cs can't search for, but I doubt that as it is usually a case of both dialogue and translation being hidden. I'm going to remove the translations as I believe they are a circular source. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 16:04, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Ahbiilok possible translation

If it's Ah - bii - lok, this is Hunter-Blue-Sky, and best thing I can come up with is Hunter of the daytime sky. --Rasikko (talk)

Onikiv

The translation on Skyrim:Bend Will gives "enlightenment" as translation for onikiv. That makes sense given that onik means "wise", but I don't see any other references for it. (Noticed because another user tried to translate Relonikiv's name on Skyrim:Dragon, but was reverted.)

Unfortunately, I don't quite understand the status of word wall translations. Are they just translated by users based on other sources? If so, I don't see why "Word Walls found in Dragonborn" is supposed to be a reference on this page. Sindugahvon also seems to be based on a word wall translation, though it isn't noted in the article. --Ethruvisil (talk) 13:19, 3 May 2020 (GMT)

Imperial Library

The imperial library claims to have gotten some translations from Bethesda, could the page do with these translations if it doesn't already?

Laar – Water

Naaktiid - Begin (literally "eat time")

Naas - Tooth

Pelaan = Wrote

Qalos - Bow

Ros - Love

Sindungahvon - Unyielding

Vos - Claw

source https://www.imperial-library.info/stories/official-dragon-dictionary

Hazak, I forgot my password again--107.185.94.216 07:37, 20 November 2021 (UTC)